Poll

Is it worth my while to use randomly generated levels as a basis for new T.U.C.Q. levels?

Yes
3 (75%)
No
1 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: December 01, 2014, 02:24:36 PM

Author Topic: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?  (Read 2816 times)

Offline Boingo the Clown

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Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« on: November 01, 2014, 02:19:53 PM »
Let's face it. A major problem with this project is the lack of new levels.  Although I have plenty of ideas, actually turning those ideas into maps has proven elusive.

This has led me to the idea of starting with randomly generated maps, then modifying them.

I recently downloaded the latest version of Oblige, the random DooM map generator.

http://oblige.sourceforge.net/

I have also been looking at a number of Random dungeon generators for D&D dungeon masters such as this:

http://www.dizzydragon.net/adventuregenerator/gen

Now I had used a random map generator before, called Slige, to generate a series of random levels for The People's DooM, but that was only meant to be temporary filler.  It was not meant for the final levels.

So my question to you is whether or not it is worth my time using these resources as bases for some new maps, or am I just wasting my time?

This project is really constipated, and it needs some castor oil. Any suggestions to help getting things moving would really be appreciated.

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Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« on: November 01, 2014, 02:19:53 PM »

Offline TrueDude

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2014, 03:22:36 PM »
Oblige maps are somewhat decent, but I find the format for them can get repetitive over time. With each update the program seems to get closer and closer to each level feeling more original though, and I have seen mods here and there that take Oblige levels and make them near unrecognizable as levels made from Oblige. You are pretty talented when it comes to decorating levels, so that might work out for you with a lot of work. It'd take a lot of fiddling though.

I suppose I should take the chance to be the annoying pest I am and note my levels I've submitted for TUCQ in the past, namely this pack of old levels (Slots E1M1-E1M4), this E3M1 submission, and E1M4 from Community Quest.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 03:35:31 PM by TrueDude »

Offline Boingo the Clown

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2014, 03:44:17 PM »
Thanks for pointing those out again.

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Offline Awesomedude249

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 05:23:14 PM »
My answer to the poll is yes. I'm about to actually vote for YES.

D***it! Oblige is only available for Windows! I have Linux.
There are a lot of DooM utilities that only work on Windows.
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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 07:08:00 PM »
1. Give me a map concept, and i'll make a version of it for you Boingo. I've been wanting to do a bit more singleplayer doom/chex mapping, but haven't wanted to take the effort to create an entire project.


2. Awesomedude, I would be very happy if you actually looked around at things before spouting words. Right on the download page for Oblige is a Linux version, as well as the source, which you can take and compile yourself.
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Offline 75

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 12:41:50 AM »
I've found that oblige maps are utterly useless as a starting point because they have very predictable copy and paste rooms.

Draw six rooms and copy/paste them at random and connect them and you'll essentially have the quality of maps you can expect from oblige.

Single player maps take me an eternity to make but I like to focus on the combat; misguided detail driven single player maps I've made in the past ALSO take me an eternity, I recently scrapped 75% of a map I was working on, then finished up the remaining 25% to make a much better map... what I'm saying here is don't be discouraged and if you think there's a low point in a layout you drew DON'T work around it, just get rid of it but keep a backup, if you're wrong it's harmless to go back and sometimes it's really helpful to consider a part of a layout as the start that wasn't intended to be a start, and build off of it instead, maybe you can combine the two concepts.

Not sure if that will help you, but my main advice is don't give up... good single player maps take time... a LOT of time... days, weeks, months. It's a slow process if you're doing it right; this is NOT DM where you can draw a layout and possibly have something playable in 30 minutes.

If you get really stuck and you can't think of anything interesting try mixing up enemies/weapons in ways you haven't thought of before and design a map around that, it is certain to change the shape (and therefore the look) of your maps; if all else fails draw shapes and focus on improving it one test at a time, rounding out corners and adding enemies, doing everything you can think of to make it better. Eventually you're bound to at least have a good starting point; even if the few shapes you sketched first don't turn out to be useful, it's very possible that the stuff attached to it WILL be useful (this has happened to me many, many times)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 12:45:11 AM by 75 »
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Offline Awesomedude249

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2014, 08:12:16 PM »
1. Give me a map concept, and i'll make a version of it for you Boingo. I've been wanting to do a bit more singleplayer doom/chex mapping, but haven't wanted to take the effort to create an entire project.


2. Awesomedude, I would be very happy if you actually looked around at things before spouting words. Right on the download page for Oblige is a Linux version, as well as the source, which you can take and compile yourself.
Well, I still can't use Doom Builder to decorate the maps. Because I'm on Linux. Well, I haven't found ANY Doom Builder alternatives for Linux to decorate the maps with. I did find one, but it wouldn't run without errors.
Oh well, I guess I'll try to compile Oblige. I still don't know much about compiling packages, because I got this Linux netbook in June for my birthday.
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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2014, 08:24:04 PM »
Use it with Wine? I have no idea how well that would work, but its worth a try.
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Offline 75

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2014, 09:44:56 PM »
Wine will crash and burn almost instantly on any version of doombuilder because doombuilder relies on directX for just about everything

The only options for Linux map editing are manually compiling Slade 3 or using a DOS Doom editor in DOSBox.

Compiling Slade 3 is an extremely difficult process and should not be attempted unless you want to spend at best all day resolving dependencies, in some cases the documentation isn't right either as far as which version you need.

It's a long, difficult journey involving old libraries that don't have source code anymore, installing different versions of the same library because library X needs library Y which needs library Z 2.0, but library A needs library B which needs library Z 1.2, etc. etc. etc.

The last time I attempted it I got through all of that and there was a glitch in the C code that I manually edited out; "some assembly required", you could say... luckily I don't mean that literally, it's all C/C++. zDoom, on the other hand, fits that both literally and metaphorically :)

If you do want to attempt this have the cmake documentation ready and be prepared to do some digging to figure out exactly what cmake is looking for because it's not always clear, and don't hesitate to try the next higher or next lower release on libraries even if the documentation makes it sound like what you have will work.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 09:51:19 PM by 75 »
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Offline Boingo the Clown

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2014, 10:12:46 PM »
I am pretty sure there are a ton of DooM editors for Linux.

Linux guys are always making their own stuff.  I am certain even the quickest of searches will bring up a good editor.

http://eureka-editor.sourceforge.net/

Offline Awesomedude249

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2014, 10:35:59 PM »
Nope, tried eureka, it wouldn't install the .deb without errors.
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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2014, 10:54:20 PM »
But yeah, Boingo, give me a map concept and I'll try to make a map out of it :P I'm itching to try some more non-DM mapping.
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Offline 75

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 12:26:57 AM »
I am pretty sure there are a ton of DooM editors for Linux.

Linux guys are always making their own stuff.  I am certain even the quickest of searches will bring up a good editor.

http://eureka-editor.sourceforge.net/

Hmm, a valid point, I think I forgot that I was looking for a UDMF-capable editor which Eureka isn't, it doesn't even support Hexen format. You're stuck with Doom format. That's still cool though! It's probably better than DEU!

Nope, tried eureka, it wouldn't install the .deb without errors.

That doesn't surprise me, try compiling it from source.

EDIT: Here's a topic of somebody having some success with DB in Linux, it might help you

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing/58485-howto-doom-builder-1-and-2-on-linux/
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 01:17:43 AM by 75 »
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Offline Awesomedude249

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2014, 05:46:25 PM »
Oh yeah, I've seen that topic before, but even if I COULD install Wine on my computer, I still don't think that my Linux machine is powerful enough, it's just a tiny little netbook that came with Windows 7, but it was so slow that Crunchbang Linux had to be installed.
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Offline The Cool Man

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Re: Oblige Maps and Random Dungeon Generators: Are They Worth It?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 06:34:36 PM »
I think Oblige maps would work well for this, an oblige map could work well as a city level if it were to be retextured with city textures...

 


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